Burke:          My name is Thomas Joseph Patrick Burke.  We were so wealthy that we could afford many middle names.  At the time, I was born in Brooklyn and we moved then to Long Island and then back to Brooklyn and Manhattan, and all around New York while my father ran the New York City subway system.  I guess the first significant thing I ought to mention is that I went to Brooklyn Tech.  It was a unique high school in that three thousand or more people took the exams to qualify for entrance and five hundred are accepted, and then that split into two groups of two hundred and three hundred.  The ones most likely to succeed went to the main building and that’s where I went.  I graduated and must say I’ve used the education I received there in aeronautics mechanical engineering.  Far more than I’ve used anything I’ve learned anywhere in institutes of higher education. 

After I graduated from Brooklyn Tech, I went to work for Republic Aviation.  Started out in inspection and moved into production.   I was operating or functioning as a foreman when the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor.  At that time, I volunteered for induction into the Air Force, then the Army Air Corps, and they wouldn’t let me go.  I’d keep going to the draft board representatives and say, “Look I’ve volunteered for induction, well, I want to go now!”  And they’d say, “What’s your badge number?” and I would tell them my badge number and they’d say, “You’re not going anywhere.”  So I decided I wasn’t going to be a foreman anymore and I went into a mechanics slot experimental.  I thought that would give me a little leverage.  It turned out I was more important there than I was as a foreman.  I was enjoying the work, but finally one day the engineering people came down from armament and said, “Why aren’t you up there with us?”  So I said, “Well, ‘cause I’m here.” And they said, “Well, do you want to work with us?”  So I went up to engineering for a while and instead of putting me into the armament section they put me into the radio section about which I knew nothing.  So this improved my chances of getting into the service.  I decided I would start playing marbles during the lunch hour with a fellow who was 4F rated, and this worked.  The Army Air Corps accepted me and had a hell of a job keeping my aviation, pre-aviation cadet status alive but I made it. 

In early 1945 I finished the navigation school and went into operations with the Air Force in air rescue and bombardment and recognizance and various slots and so on for many years.  I was also an intelligence officer and Top Secret Control Officer during my tour at Travis Air force base in the late forties and early fifties.  Then went into teaching at the Navigator Instructor School and wound up as the officer in charge of that for a while.  And luckily I managed to get into the Air Force Institute of Technology Program, which permitted me to finish my education and get a Bachelor’s Degree from what is now Cal State of Sacramento.  Following that, I went into air refueling squadron at Langley and then separated from the service and started attending the University of Miami at Miami, Florida.  While I was there, I had to work my way through school by flying as a navigator for Guest airways.  Spent weekends in Lisbon.  It was a lovely time.   I was raising a family of two children and a wife.   We did rather well, and finally the airline job dried up and I had to take another job flying to the Congo during the time of the uprising.  I would fly from the U.S. to Brazil, to Ascension Island, to Ghana and then into the Congo and spend any time there from several days to several weeks.  It was exciting.

Dutka:   Did you feel any danger in the Congo?  What was it like?

Burke:   It wasn’t too bad for us.  We were at Jalo Beanza, which was outside of Leopoldville.  We had Indian troops encircling us to protect us.  Outside of that, the outer perimeter we had gurkhas.  The rule there among the baloobas and luluas was that the gurkhas never lost a knife.  They always hit their targets.  So we felt pretty safe until one day when we learned that an Irish Patrol had been taken by the Baloobas, and taken to the village and they broke their legs to keep them as fresh meat.  Fortunately, some Gurkhas ran across the incident, but it was too late they ran across one of the Irishman who had broken away.  But that spooked us a little bit.  Generally we were pretty secure. 

            Anyway, I managed to get through school.  University during that and got my MBA in marketing, and the faculty and chairman wanted to retain me as an instructor, which I--because during my tenure as a student I was also teaching.  They wanted to put me on full time status, but unfortunately I didn’t have a Ph.D. and they were marginal for accreditation with AACSB and so I had to go to work.  I worked on part time status at the University.  I worked on part time status at the Junior college there and I was also teaching with the extension course from Florida State at the air base near Miami.  Teaching mainly marketing and statistics at the time.  Let’s see, yeah.  While I was teaching there for FSU at their extension, the Dean of Arts and Sciences had quit and come up to Wilmington as Dean of Faculty--Paul Reynolds.  He had put out the word to the people who ran the FSU Extensions that he was looking for faculty to come here.  Before I knew it, one day this Irishman was in my face trying to talk me into coming to Wilmington.  I had no interest in coming to Wilmington.  I was happy there.  I liked fishing.  I had a boat, and we had a lovely home and stuff like that, even though we had barely made it through school in an economic sense.  But anyway, finally he told me I ought to just for the trip, it’s an all expense paid vacation around Christmastime. 

            We came here and fell in love with the place.  I went back and told them I didn’t want tenure and I didn’t want to work for them anymore and I’d see them later.  Came up.  The total faculty, staff--that includes maintenance, secretaries and everything else, including the professors-- was seventy.  Seventy people and about five hundred students.  I went under the School of Business to teach statistics and research and marketing.  Really loved it.  We were on the quarter system.  I spent three hours a day teaching every day.  I had the afternoons free.  I had never been so free in my life with my time.  Mac West was the Chairman of the Department at the time.  We got along beautifully.  We had a department of just a few teachers, about five in total.  We were teaching a mix of---I don’t know--- business school and management and marketing.  We were still doing training for secretaries and things like that at the time---accounting and stuff.  Gradually we moved into University status and so on over the years.  I taught marketing, statistics and finally they opened the Production and Decisions Sciences Department.  I went there and started teaching systems design and other things like that related to production and decision sciences, but still mainly teaching statistics ’cause I loved it.  I don’t know why.  I had a job getting a B at Cal. State, but I liked it anyway.  It’s been a mainstay during my lifetime.

  While I was teaching one day, Mac West came and told me someone’s looking for someone to do some testimony in court.  We have a case here where we have after death, damages and so on.  He said they wanted to know if they had—we had someone here who could handle it for them and I volunteered because it was paid job.  After that I did a lot of work in what’s now become known as forensic economics, but then I was just appraising the values of death duties and other things like that.  But it generated some extra income that we needed at the time.  I even had my testimony cited in the North Carolina Law Review, which is a prestigious thing to have happen.  That increased the demand for my services for a little while, but not for long (laughing by everyone).

Dutka: What was your first impression of when you came to UNCW?  What was the campus like?  What was the atmosphere?

Burke:   Well, we had three buildings when I came here: Hoggard Hall, the main administration building, and I don’t know what the one across the campus from that is called, but that’s the student center now.

Dutka: Right.  It’s James Hall or Alderman.

Burke: Yeah, James, I think.  Anyway, that was it, and we had to share an office.  We had bullpens for offices, as I recall.  I found something in my teaching experiences.  As I went from place to place, if Parkinson’s Law was correct, grandeur facilities are an indicator of internal decay.  I found that, when I was teaching, the best teaching was done by people living in barracks rather than castles.  When we became bigger, and bigger, and bigger, and offices became status symbols and the like, you became a little disenchanted with what was going on as we grew into a university.  We were getting another kind of people.  Many of them new people coming in, who are very much political savvy—are political savvy and manipulative.  I didn’t like that part of the change in the character of the faculty.  The earlier types are far more dedicated to the students than to themselves.  There’s a difference.  Anyway, in spite of all the handicaps the new people represented, I managed to do some work and get some things published.  A local Turkish doctor, who is finishing up his work in the University of Baltimore, came by and asked where he could get some help in experimental design, and so on, and who should he call at theTtriangle.  I told him he didn’t need to do that, that I was capable of it.  Wound up being a part of three pieces of research in medicine concerned with vaginitis and groin bacterium.  Then, later on, I too concerned myself with AIDS--that was the American Institute for Decision Sciences, not the disease.  I had a couple of things published there, and so on, but I don’t know, research was nice.  Teaching the students was far more exciting.

Dutka: Do you have any memories of any characters you came across?  Either students or other faculty that you’d like to just tell us about?

Burke: Well, I’ll try to filter out the obscene encounters (laughing).  There’s one encounter that sticks in my mind.  There was a lovely buxom lady in my class, in statistics, and I had a policy that a student could at any time say whatever they wanted to.  I had a loose environment.  Luckily, in my whole experience in, what, 26 years here, I only had one loose-cannon type student.  I had to squelch him in a manner I could not disclose at this point (laughing).  But anyway, one of the funniest things that ever happened to me was this young lady who gave me a hard time in class, but always in good humor, was down the hall talking to a group of guys, and all of a sudden she jumped at one fellow and hugged him.  I was walking in that way, anyway, so when I became abeam of them-- I won’t say abreast (laughing)—eh, I turned to the lady and said, “What do I have to do to get a hug like that?”  She said, “He’s going to be a father,” and I said, “Oh, that’s good.  Congratulations, young man.”  I said, “I’m going to be a father too,” and she said, “Professor Burke, you’re not gonna be a father!”  I said, “Yes I am.”  “I don’t believe that you’re gonna be a father.”  “I’m not that old, I can still father children.”  “Oh no.” I said, “Yes, I am.” “You are?!”  And she jumped at me and hugged me.  While we were in a tight embrace, I whispered in her ear that she was gonna be the mother (laughing).  Unfortunately for her, she lost control.  She was laughin so hard.  She fell to the floor and was kind of jack-knifed around my feet.  I couldn’t move until she stopped laughing and took a moment or two.  Finally, I stepped out of the embrace of my ankles and went down the hall and got out of sight as fast as I could (lauging).  But I think that’s the main or funniest incident.

Dutka:   How ‘bout other faculty members?  Anyone come to mind that you can—would like to discuss, or—

Burke:   One that sticks in my mind most is Mac West, who was the one in charge of the Business School, Chairman of the Business School, when I came.  He was the finest man I have ever met in education.  I met many fine people in my Air Force experiences, as well, but Mac West stood out.  He was really oriented to benefiting, toward benefiting the students to the maximum.  My work as one of his subordinates was very, very pleasant.  One day, he offered me the Chairmanship.  He had one man in Administration he wanted to outlive, and when that man was promoted elsewhere, he decided he wanted to quit being Chairman, and asked me if I wanted it.  I told him I would share the Chairmanship, but I didn’t like being a boss, I’d rather be a teacher.  I didn’t like the things bosses had to do politically, anyway.  Then, along came Norm Kaylor, who followed me by a couple of years.  A couple years later.  And he took over the Chairmanship.  Then, later on, he offered the Chairmanship to me again, and I respectfully declined again.  I decided that those were two of the best decisions I ever made.

            My experience in the Air Force and civilian work life proved to me that I really didn’t want to be a boss.  I wanted to be productive, I guess is the way to put it.  Anyway, that brings us up to what poing?

Dutka:   Can you tell us about some interesting people you may have met in the Congo while you were there?

Burke:   It was pretty much a transient operation.  I was a navigator over the Southern route for the ferrying of aircraft into and out of the Congo.  We traveled from Natal in Brazil.  I had to learn a little Portuguese there.  Then, over to Ascension Island, and Acroi, and Ghana, and then to Leopoldville, or Brazzaville, and one time, I was fortunate enough to have a long layover in Loepoldville.  I met the pilot I’d navigated for over there.  As a matter of fact, my whole encounter with this pilot was fascinating, and very interesting

            His name was Augie Morton.  We had flown from Natal over the Ascension Island, and I had navigated and stuff along the way.  I hadn’t had any sleep for more than a full day, because of the way the flight was going.  I was tired.  Well, we had noticed that the chief pilot of the aircraft was black, and decided to take the crew out to dinner.  Wich they did.  And Augie, Augie Morton, the pilot asked me if I’d file a flight plan and so on before I hit the air mattress and tried to get some sleep.  I filed, I went to sleep.

 They came on board after having lunch with the mayor of Acroi and I handed the boy, the pilot who was going to fly left seat to Leopoldville, the flight plan, and told him to be certain to change the heading at Libreville.  Little while later, I was awakened from my sleep by Augie Morton.  He said, “Tom, we’re lost.”  I said, “What?” He said,” We’re not where we should be, I know.”  So I went up and found out that some pilot who had taken the flight plan had gone back and gone to sleep, and they had some other idiot flying the airplane.  SO anyway, I started finding out where we were.  During the process, I had another idiot pilot who was so out of it, that he was driving me crazy, so I kept sending him back to the rear of the airplane to get other maps, which I didn’t need, but that took him out of the way.  Finally, I located us, and we landed a Leopoldville with about 12 minutes of gasoline remaining. 

Following that flight, Augie Morton and I drank a lot of beer at the hotel out in the open in Leoplodville.  Really established a good relationship.  I really enjoyed the time I spent with that man.  He had been flying with a German Airline and ahd taken leave to come and fly in the Congo operation.  We were good friends.  There’s a crazy joke in here if you want to hear it.

Dutka:   Yeah, sure, I’d love to hear it.

Burke:   On that flight, in addition to getting, having the pilots get us lost.  But there was another entertaining, very entertaining thing about Brazilians and their political stuff.  I just thought that maybe, It may be appropriate with what’s going on with respect to Monica Lewinsky and the whole bit now.  Brazilians have a good sense of humor concerning their politics, and here’s a good example, and it stretches over three years, but it’ll only take about three minutes to tell it. 

We’re in Natal.  Bob Lindquist was a friend of mine; He was in the information services—what is it?  Well, anyway, he was a government employee over there, and he had us over for cocktails one night.  We were drinking, and a lawyer came in who had recently just come back from teaching a class at the University of Natal.  He said, “Oh, this was a horrible day today.”  We asked him what was wrong.  He said, “Oh, Ung Us Quatros tried to take over the government.”  He said, “We didn’t know what to do.” He said, “So they appointed a man named Rafael Mujueri as interm president.”  Of course, you know Mujueri sounds a bit like Malad fro sickness.  And we decided we’d call him ‘El Presidente Malad’, it’s the president of the sickness.  So that seemed appropriate.  HE said, but only today when this happened again, we didn’t know what to call him, cause they replaced again the seated president with Rafael Mujueri, but ‘Presidente Malad’ had been used.    So all of Rio today went crazy trying to name him, so they finally came up with an answer to the problem in Rio.  He said, “We decided to call him ‘El Presidente Kotex’, because he gets to the best places but always at the worst times,” (laughing).  And you’d think that this is the end, but it isn’t! 

Three years later, I was in Miami with my wife, Fran—that was my third wife.  I told her about this thing in Brazil and really praised the good sense of humor that the people in Brazil have.  Politics is a real joke over there.  Anyway, they’ve spilled every little blood by the way, in revolutions or changes.  Anyway, I picked up the Miami Herald and looked, and there was Rafael Mujueri, appointed interm president again.  This is the third time it’s happened.  So I turned to my wife and said, “I wonder what they call him this time?”  She said, “That’s very easy.”  She said, “ ‘El Presidente Tampax,’ because every time he gets in, there’s a string attached,” (laughing).

Anyway, going on from there to the Congo, and getting back to Augie Morton:  Years later, I decided I was gonna write a screen play about him.  I contacted some people who indicated that there was a school in Jamaica, Long Island named for him.  So I called the principal and asked him if I could come up and check out some stuff and see if I could locate Augie and the like.  Locate information about Augie, because a couple of years earlier, he had been killed flying with his new wife to Biafra.  After the Congo thing, he was sent back to the German Airline and was flying emergency supplies into Biafra.  When he was landing, he was either hit by a missile, or just killed by flying under difficult conditions. 

So anyway, I wanted to find out more about him.  So I let the principal know that I knew Augie Morton.  He said, “Com up here!  Ill get the money to pay your fare and stuff.”  He said, “No one knows who Augie Morton really is.”  So I did.  And spent a very pleasant day at the expense of the New York State Education System trying to track down his children, and also giving a speech to an assembly of students who seemed very interested.  That’s a unique school—Augie Morton School is oriented mainly toward teaching information about leading to aviation careers and the like.  It’s kind of like Brooklyn Tech in a way.  Brooklyn Tech is concerned with supplying people to link engineers to production.  Augie Morton High School in Jamaica is trying to fill in the gap between pilots and operations.

Dutka:   I notice on your resume that you spent some time in the South Pacific.  Do you have any stories to tell us about the South Pacific?

Burke:   Let’s see.  Well when we were at Los Nigros Island we lost one crew and airplane.

Dutka:   What year was that?

Burke:   That’d be 1947 or early ’48.  We were flying reconnaissance aircraft over there doing photo mapping.  They found that they really didn’t know we had missiles and other things on the drawing boards and the like and they didn’t know where most of the parts of the world were located.

Cuba was about—I don’t know—how many, ha, ha, ha, mislocated by several miles and other things like that.  So we were out there doing mapping and getting information for the nuclear age I guess.  I’m trying to think of some things.  Mainly, I spent time in Borneo, New Guinea, the Halmaharras, the Celebes and the like.  It was mainly just work.  I didn’t have a real problem until we came home.  I’d spent eighteen years over in operational flying under extreme conditions; there were mountains and this and that and the other thing.  One pilot almost took the top off of a mountain at Port Moresby.

Didn’t have any trouble and when we got back to the States the crew got together and decided that they were gonna get some up in Detroit.  So guess what happened when they landed at Detroit?  We crashed.  Yeah, it was at—not Detroit—Lansing.  Abut anyway they had just oiled the runway.  We rounded out after coming down from high altitude.  The windshields were cold and suddenly we hit an inversion layer and the visibility dropped to zero.  The runway was slick and built on a mound, so we couldn’t ground loop and get out of it.  So all we could do was crash straight ahead into a young forest which treated us very kindly.  Needles to say, much gasoline and other stuff was escaping from the aircraft when we stopped.  We got out of there in a hurry, but luckily no one was hurt.

Dutka:   Now I notice at UNCW in your retirement tribute, they call you the silver fox.  What does mean here to you at UNCW?

Burke: That goes back.  We had a student there when we were mostly men in the business school; very few girls were in the curriculum when we got there.  They were more in the other part of it—the secretarial kind of courses or accounting kind of courses.  I was giving a statistics exam after having become familiar with the student body which was very small, so you got to know people much than I did later.

Anyway, noticed that some people were not expected to do well were doing exceedingly well on the statistics exams and I said this can’t be.  I was using a new set of questions and stuff that came from the authors of the book and they were pretty well done so I decided I’d try it.  So I said well let just make a not of that.  So I noted in my book from which I took roll and kept records that these are to be watched.  So I watched them very carefully during the exams and I gave the second test from that series and I had the exams in statistics progressively weighted 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 so that subsequent tests had more effect on grades that the earlier ones.  Sure enough, it was out of whack.  These people just weren’t capable of getting those grades.  My criterion was contaminated somewhere along the line.  Though I took the next set of questions and had Opal Price, our secretary, a lovely lady, put them on her desk under a piece of paper and you’d be surprised at how may students came in and lifted up that piece of paper to check to see what was under there.  I prepared a whole new test and reproduced the first page of the author’s test and put that on top. 

I gave out the test.  I watched the kids smile.  There was five of them and one innocent victim.  They had it made.  Big Ed was laughing in the back of the room with a big grin on his face as he looked.  Then I told everyone that the test started on the second page.  The grade pattern shifted grossly.  So then I circled their names in the roll books and I was grossly surprised on how often people came up and looked at that roll book to see if they were marked in any way. (laughing)

I never did a thing about these kids who were doing that, except hang out behind the door or something like that where they were gathered.  I’d go to the bathroom when they were outside the door and listen to them piss and moan—express their fears about what was going to happen.  I guess that punishment might parallel what could be given to President Clinton at this time.  But anyway, that’s how that name originated.

Dutka:   They also call you a Renaissance man now?  How did you come by that tag?

Burke:   I told you earlier I went to Brooklyn Tech and studied in the aero-mechanical program.  Brooklyn Tech is unique.  It’s still operating by the way, but I’m sure the curriculum has changed vastly since 1940 when I got out.  The education I received there taught me to do things with my mind and my hands than you not expect high school level students to do.  It was a fantastic school!  There were many of our classes were taught by engineers.  One of the prime designers of the Chance 4F 4U Fighter was our instructor in stress analysis and performance analysis.  Those topics weren’t taught in any other high school in the world, I don’t think at the time, but they loaded us.  They taught us how to learn and we learned well and continued to learn well.  I think I attribute a lot of the ease with which I was able to go through advanced studies was due to the good habits they had given me at Tech.  But ah, it was a beautiful school.

Dutka: What was, what’s your proudest moment at UNCW as a faculty member here?  What comes to mind as something that stands out; whether it’s an incident of semester or a year or an accomplishment.

Burke:   I think the most outstanding thing is to listen to people tell me how much they enjoyed my statistics course.  There was one device—I used to lay in bed and think about devices to use.  This is another funny one I guess.  I ought to tell it.

            One morning I noticed my neighbors getting into their duck boat.  So I said, why don’t I make up a problem about ducks?  I was going to teach probability that day.  So I made up a case.  I said you know assume you have three hunters and one’s got a shooting average of 200 and the other has a shooting average of 300 and the other with 500 and so forth.  A duck flies over the lake where there’s their line hidden in the weeds and stuff and they fire pop, pop, pop at the duck.  What’s the probability that the duck would come through unscathed? 

            One of my loud and more aggressive students in the back, a frat rat, said if he gets through, he’s super duck.  So that became the super duck problem. (laughing).  I use that device to teach the course form the on.  Later on one of my students, who was a former marine and so forth, and had been teaching in Louisiana University, came back through and asked me to tell him about super duck again, and I did.  I found out that he was writing a book concerning the finest learning experiences I had.  I guess that was a good moment. 

Dutka:   Now do you see any difference—what’s the big difference you see in a campus today or from the day that you started to the day, to today?

Burke:   Well, I’m kind of a loner I guess.  I haven’t been around the campus much since ’91.

INTEVIEWER:   But your time here from ’65 to ’91?

Burke: Ah huh, what?

Dutka:   Ah, have the students changed?  Have the students’ attitudes changed?

Burke:   I can only talk about the shift in attitudes when I was here because I haven’t had any contact really.

Dutka:   Because you were here during a fairly turbulent time in the country and…

Burke:   Yeah, well when I got here you had a commuter campus.  The students in the business school were mostly male and had jobs outside.  We were on the quarter system.  They dug in and they worked hard.  Over time there was a big shift in the responsibility of the students to themselves.  I guess about five years after I came here and the grandeur of the building became more conspicuous.  The students had a shift. 

I formed a model at the University of Miami.  They were excellent scholars and devoted to learning and so forth.  They made you aware that the Cubans were very nice people by and large we were getting the cream of the crop from there too though.  But there was a shift in attitudes and they wanted you to do more and then the students wanted to do less.  I was hard to drag them along.  In the early days I could just challenge.  But when I started challenging them ten years later, they didn’t respond very well.  Some did, but by and large the average…

Dutka:  Tell us a little bit about your writing please.

Burke:   Well, let’s see, about 1989 just before I retired, a man representing himself as an established author asked me to join in a writing group and write a screen play about a naval operations thing.  It turned out later on he was a scam artist and almost anyone in the group was a better writer than he was.  As a result, we got so angry I decided I was gonna take the piece that guy had generated and make it into a good screen play, which I’ve done.  Some agents have indicated its good and just got to wait for the right moment to come along.

Dutka:   A script?

Burke:   Yeah.  Anyway, the author turned out the “author” or the original screen play turned out to be a fraud.  So I took it and rewrote it and named it Swiss Island and Deadly, and then decided I’d write another one based on an idea I had which I entitled ???? which deals with an alien summer camp in the Yukon.  I’ve had some luck in getting some attention for them, but neither one has sold yet.

            I also wrote—co-authored a book on terrorism which was published by Windsor Publishing and had some success and the like.  It was done in tandem with a young man named Holmes.  I did most of the writing and he did the stuff that was public domain and just kind of put it together and edited it.  But his name’s first, that’s the way it goes. (laughing) 

Anyway, that lead me into become the unpaid terrorism expert for WECT Channel 6, cause they interviewed me on the morning show concerning the book.  The interview went pretty well I guess.  Then the Oklahoma City bombing came into being and they called me and asked me if I had seen it on television.  I said no.  They said well go see it and come on in and see us in the morning and we’ll talk about it.

I did that the next day and was there in the morning show and they ran it off in the evening as well and stuff like that.  They tried to force me into guessing or something or other about where ya know, where the source of the terrorism was?  Was it form here, there or anywhere and stuff.  Finally, the next morning a light came on in my head and I said, uh oh it’s domestic.  I was gonna call the station and tell Francis Weller or anyone else there that it was probably domestic and got wrapped up in other things and forgot to do it.  Probably lost my moment of glory there, but what the hell.  Anyway, I’ve appeared there a total of three times; once about the book and twice about terrorism.  They haven’t called me since.

INTERVIEWER: Now do you have any more of final thoughts about UNCW or anyone you’d like to remember or talk about or any comments as you wrap up?

Burke:   Well the experience here was almost all good.  I have no way of wanting to recall the bad.  In the middle of my tenure they paid me weakly, very weakly.  Then things got a little better, but they were siphoning off money to get people with Ph.D.s and reputations and so on.  Build the university from the college and it worked evidently.  I don’t know, let’s see.  (Comments being made by Professor Burke in a low voice thinking aloud, but comments not understandable.)